Transcript
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Adriaan Buys: Thank you for joining me. Today. I'm here with Leif cocks from the orangutan project. And not just The orangutan project has expanded to the international elephant project as well and international tiger project. And as part of our change makers interviews, I would just like to just find out a little bit more about the orangutan project and discuss what are the needs out there. How can we help and support the wrong returns out there? And also what are the challenges that Leif and the team are facing out there in the forest specifically. I think you've got the forest project that you are running as So I think that's a huge mouthful on sort of introducing you quite informally.
Adriaan Buys: But if you could maybe just in your own words, just tell me what are the biggest needs that you guys are having at the moment. What are your projects that you are focusing on for 2024 and how can people support you?
Leif Cocks: Mm- Yes. So with any process as all as we've learned a chemical reaction. There's a rate determining step for us as money, in our group we have the skills and the context to achieve our vision, but it's that's holding us back. So that's the current situation. We're To put that into a vision of what we're trying to achieve. Is it's just no use saving bits of rainforest. you have to save entire functioning ecosystem the right type shape and size. The reason being either rainforest creates its own humidity in rainfall. And so…
Adriaan Buys: Yeah.
Leif Cocks: if you say bits of rain for us those rainforest systems will eventually collapse
Leif Cocks: Shape is important because there's huge Edge effect and up to kilometer, on the edge of the rainforest you can have up to 80% of biodiversity missing from each effects of their own net Forest. So having long skinny forests or corridors doesn't hold a lot of biodiversity and even from climate change. We know biodiverse for more carbon then for us we should avoid a biodiversity the second as third aspect. is type all the nutrients flow downhill and all the elephants tigers and orangutans and Indigenous communities need the lowland river Rhine forces the truth survive.
Leif Cocks: But governments tend to create national parks in the Hills because it's for water catchment and there's no pressure from palm oil and other Industries to convert it because it's too steep for the agricultural practices. let's say so we can save all the high land primary Forest but we still won't have viable ecosystems that will survive into the future. And so we have this unique opportunity in this decade to save functioning viable ecosystems.
Leif Cocks: After that, certainly. We have rain for us for a while, but those ecosystems will eventually collapse and the biodiversity we're gone and saving a rainforest is the most effective thing we can do to mediate climate change now linking into the core values are wanting to help indigenous communities elephants tigers and orangutans, you need sufficient numbers of those species for the species to survive. So if you only save a few hundred of a pick of species, they'll eventually inbreed into Extinction. just saving orangutan.
00:05:00
Leif Cocks: And so the land has been taken away by big multinationals.
Leif Cocks: So our goal is to educate and…
Adriaan Buys: Yeah.
Leif Cocks: make wealthy not just impover new subsistence, but make them affluent in the ecosystem.
Adriaan Buys: Yeah.
Leif Cocks: They're doing education and money translates the power and that is in our succession plan of ensuring that these ecosystems will be maintained both environmentally but also importantly economically and so they become safe and resilient against outside precious. So it gives you I get a big view about what we're trying to achieve at the moment eight ecosystems the right type shape and saw the rain for us, but in the meantime when we got quickly and then you species such as elephants tigers and orangutans, every individual is valuable for the sake of the individual themselves as self-aware being such a planet.
Leif Cocks: But they're also highly important at the Genetic Resource to keep their critical endangered species alive.
Adriaan Buys: I'm so glad you started with the biodiversity but then also included the people because I mean I love this quote and I'm not sure from where somebody who mentioned that conservation is a people problem. not a wildlife or ecosystem problem. Ultimately. It's the hearts and Minds we've got a change and hearts and Minds we've got to work with in the specific communities and support them. And I think that's your people and forests program.
Adriaan Buys: Trying to keep those biodiversity keep that part of this team Tech working with the local communities. But I mean, I guess also working with those businesses and corporations changing hearts and minds are of provi Direction and why it is so important to keep these ecosystems intact and we have a very similar issue. I mean and Africa as well, for example grassland ecosystems, it's not a forests are beautiful and Global initiatives are targeting forests.
Adriaan Buys: But people are human eye. We see a grassland and immediately used you start thinking development, that is perfect for development. it's low-lying areas. We can build suburbs we can build Farm, my first place you will want to farm as your grassland, because there's not a lot of rocks. It's not in the Hills you mentioned the hills before so, all of these ecosystems have their little spot in conserving biodiversity. And I think like you say, just to have these national parks allocated and only focusing on the specific areas that are conserved.
Adriaan Buys: And in the iot I use the n in the UN type of whether they're Target of 30% I mean, there's a lot more areas that we need to talk it, to try and conserve to otherwise we can end up with all these skinny two small national parks with animal habitats squeezed and yeah.
Leif Cocks: Exactly and from a Global Perspective. Not only we have to deal with carbon issue from fossil fuels the methane issues from the dairy and meat Industries, but we have to rewall about 25% of the planet, to achieve objectives. And highlighting what you said before it's never Wildlife versus people or the environment versus economy the false paradigms. It's about creating a better world for everybody. And wonderful thing if you do good for everybody you have achievable lasting outcomes. And so love has no boundaries. So if you in a lose situation, you may have a temporary gain, but you won't have a lasting game. And so I call it the intelligent expression of love and love is not.
Leif Cocks: Individual Community Nation or species it is universal and we're all into connected. I mean, for example the meat industry, yes that's causing what more climate change and all the Transport Systems in the world combined. So it's obviously from a climate change perspective and important industry to phase out. Then we can talk about that the cruelty to animals in the industry as well the cruelty while the animals being poached and killed in the forest being destroyed.
00:10:00
Leif Cocks: But there's also linked to health we don't eat meat is now the World Health Organization listed a carthagen at the same level of smoking. So it's hurting people through their dietary requirements and also, destroying the rain for us is increasing temperatures and causing drought floods and ruined in lines of the people and ruin the future economic capacity of the country Indonesia by losing the rainforth which is supporting the long-term economic viability of the whole country. To all these things just a quick couple examples of…
Adriaan Buys: Yeah.
Leif Cocks: how all things are linked. And unless we consider all living beings and in intelligent expression of love. We will fail to achieve our outcomes.
Adriaan Buys: Yeah, with that love example, I think. what we dealt with a couple of years ago just before I think it was this massive divide with people, where it was the people who were All for the meat and against the meat and all development and against development. and I think the important thing is to form from my perspective is to try and take the politics out of conservation to look at how we can I don't see people as stopping eating meat tomorrow.
Adriaan Buys: I don't think it is something we have to deal with myself and my everyday diet. I've obviously doing what I'm doing. I've reduced my meat in Tech now to one meal a week and it was actually less at a point. I think I was eating two meals a month. Actually increased it to one meal a week because I was finding some health issues with not getting enough protein with the way I was eating even though I'm drinking my smoothies and various things. but
Adriaan Buys: but be that as it may I'm doing my little bit. to contribute and I guess you've got the person sitting any Lounge who does he's Recycling and he does a little bit of that and the next guy who's got he's electric vehicle and he drives that and
Adriaan Buys: I think do they important thing is how do we create a structural change that doesn't change with the vote. For example, I'm sitting currently in New Zealand where a new party is just taken over because of reasons. the community and all the people as it's quite a talk about point, the previous party was quite green. But I think they were voted out pretty much not specifically about green issues, but because of other issues, but now with them being voted out the discussion or the green has now been put on the back burner and we're looking now for the next four years or eight years or whatever you're looking at.
Adriaan Buys: growth and development and So, how do we unbundle those issues?
Leif Cocks: Yeah, yeah.
Adriaan Buys: How do we unbundle development from Green? For example?
Leif Cocks: Yeah, yeah, there's two issues you raise which and so the first one is about people, running electric bikes and going vegan that sort of stuff and I do all that don't get me wrong, From a conservation point of view total waste of time and…
Adriaan Buys: Yeah.
Adriaan Buys: Yeah.
Leif Cocks: we'll install this idea that our individual actions can make meaningful change in a world never happened in the past. And what happened in the future. In fact, the carbon footprint as we all understand is invented by British Petroleum 100.
Leif Cocks: Companies that contributed to the vast majority of climate change and has basically try to stop any changes to protect the planet to conserve their industry to why they create the carbon footprint because they want to do two things. They wanted to say you're the problem not them and to go off and do your little greeny thing right while and don't collect device and make any meaningful change. So humans can only work and Achieve things by collectivizing together in organization ngos and movements. So that's not why about our individual actions. Let's worry about how well we collect advise to make that mean for Change and because we've been solve this Puck to disempower us to make the meaningful changes to make a better world. Now the other aspect to it is we're talking about business and growth.
00:15:00
Leif Cocks: but business and making money, that's all fine. But what business business actually call externalities in their Ledges externalities are things that they know have an effect, but it doesn't cost them anything like you can pollute it and destroy a river. And kill the fisheries whatnot all the Palm or Plantation can cause floods and droughts and take the resources away from local community data pay for that. Poor and the powerless. So what they do is they passed a true cutter production onto the powerless and with climate change. The powerless is also the future Generations who can't vote so it's not about making so Industries who cannot be profitable. Without passing a true cost of production onto others should not be allowed to exist.
Leif Cocks: Because it's not capitalism. It's not Market driven. It's not progress It's exploitation. Yeah, however, there are many Fantastic, people doing Innovation and development, which are not exploitative not passing through Cross of production others. what we don't want to destroy growth and progress. Yeah and development. We want it not to be exploitative. Yeah, which leads on to the second point I want to make is I don't really often people off to talk about, we have to keep growing and the population isn't going to keep growing it the population of the human humans are collapsing and the biggest thing most countries have
Leif Cocks: is the population collapse which is coming, and how do we deal with the Aging population less Workforce and economy is not based on continuous growth for the human population. That's the reality. So, we have to base an economies no longer on this Perpetual growth. Because that France already left the station we know the human population is going to Peak soon at nine billion and start collapsing because we're simply not replacing ourselves so big so basing your economic model on all Paradigm, which we know is going to collapse is it's circumvent to Madness, and therefore as I says, it's never the environment versus the economy.
Leif Cocks: Is these things are hand in hand, but what we want to do is as stop the misinformation and stop the people who want to exploit others and the future for short-term profit, but allow those Innovative and Visionaries who make money, doing good things. We want them to grow and prosper.
Adriaan Buys: Yeah, I love the way this conversation is going because these type of things are.
Adriaan Buys: So close to my heart, it's I think Africa where my original home is and where I probably will return to soon. I think there's still some growth coming and the economy's there pushing hard to be excluded out of some of the global agreements and to give them some leeway to still grow Etc. But I mean on the ground level, when you speak to the general public people friends around the barbecue, they are still incentivize their salespeople to get growth, if you don't get 20% growth this year, you're not getting your bonus. If you don't achieve this type of growth, there's no bonus Etc. So that mindset of growth that's still there. But I really like what you said about that collectorizing the blame or putting the blame on this on the person.
Adriaan Buys: I have this very specific example that or…
Leif Cocks: Hey.
Adriaan Buys: whether the people sometimes think I must be crazy when I give this example when I'm saying. Free range chicken is part of the problem or free-range eggs is It's not part of the Free range is an industry. Problem that's been pushed down onto the individual. The chickens should have liveable conditions that are Humane for them we still work in South Africa on A4, and some chickens are still in A4 size cages where they live to lay their eggs, that should be illegal. That should not be.
00:20:00
Adriaan Buys: Pushed down onto the consumer to say to buy free range eggs in a country. For example, like South Africa…
Leif Cocks: All right.
Adriaan Buys: where there's High poverty. The person is going to go to the Shelf is going to pick the cheapest eggs and free range has always been around about I think it's between 10 and 20% of the market. It's never grown. Yeah, it's supposed to grow.
Leif Cocks:
Adriaan Buys: It's by pushing it down on the individual you actually take the company's off the hook.
Leif Cocks: you hit the nail on the head. You can let's say if I'm a company and I'm paying my work as well and not passing true cost of production of Palace cleaning up and having a clean industry. I cannot compete if other industries that can underpated workers. I exploit people and pass on a true cost of production others. They're going to out compete me in a Marketplace. so it's always going to be a race to the bottom. So you can't expect companies as by themselves without government regulation to make the necessary changes. But if we make the regulations, so companies can't be explorative have to look after the workers look after their customers Etc. Then it's even playing field and then the good companies who have Innovation and the best products will prosper.
Leif Cocks: And so you're dead, It shouldn't be put down to the individual or even the companies because there's some companies who lobbying governments to reduce regulation. and what they do know is they will not be competitive in an even playing field. And so that's why they do that, but they shouldn't be allowed to influence politics. Let's have good regulation to even a playing field and people have for industry. So not pass the true cost production others, and then we'll see. Good industry prosper and get the reward. They deserve not these dinosaurs who this only business model. That works is by exploiting others.
Adriaan Buys: Yeah, but being on that topic, then it got coming back to your Forest initiatives near orangutan projects to ask consumers to buy less palm oil products to give you an Heidi. I actually worked for a company which had palm oil in of the company so it used to be and there's still people who saying it has less environmental footprint than other types of oils.
Adriaan Buys: But what do you see in the palm oil industry and the effects on the forests where you're operating at the moment?
Leif Cocks: Yeah, no, it's a great segue from what we've previously were discussing. The first thing is there is no sustainable Palm rule. Palmol is a monoculture and all monocultures is destroy the environment for which is grown. So all the palm oil plantations will collapse in 56 years time leaving a desert Wasteland in the Wake. So the idea of sustainable Palm or Palm or being have no effect is just rubbish. That your science that's not how science and nature works. This but ironically a second aspect is linking to our previous conversation to have an anti Palm or campaign go sustainable palm of whatever that Is a waste of time and affects no, meaningful change won't save one tree. You want orangutan?
Leif Cocks: because it's not really addressing the true driver deforestation, the deforestation occurs actually very much linked to the election cycle. So if you want to be elected you people you need a lot of money to get elected. And to get your message out there and the people who give you the money, they need the payoff once you get a power and what do you have? you have leases to rain forest land that you can give away in compensation for you getting elected and so they will destroy the rainforth just for the value of the trees alone because the trees are with millions in the average concession. So you can stop Palm all tomorrow. They're still going to take the trees for the value of the trees. They're still going to use trees to pay off. I'm political capital
00:25:00
Leif Cocks: but then the obviously often good businessmen and they'll plant whatever short-term crop we give maximum profit. And that's often parmal, but can be pulp paper. It can be rubber it can be sugar Palm. And so if you for example managed to stop or palm oil expansion tomorrow, you're not going to save one tree because they'll still not the forest down for the value of the trees and they'll plant pot paper. They'll plant rubber plantations instead and still make a fantastic profit. so in the scrimic charity causes more problems in the world. Then it solves.
Leif Cocks: So we're not only have to have the love and compassion to make a better world for living beings, but we have to intelligently apply that love I call the two wings of the One Wing is love and compassion otherwing isn't knowledge and intelligence and if one of those wigs are broken the bird flaps around and in circles and never gets off the ground and the antipamol movement or the sustainable Palmer the perfect example where good people are, in sense effectively moving people and direction that has no being for change.
Leif Cocks: That don't get me wrong. Yes it likely electric bike which I've got my garage in my solar panels of my roof. I'm not against going Palm or free at the individual choice because more than likely that Palm will replace rainforce that container orangutan. We can be misled into campaigns and initiatives that's going to achieve the meaningful change I think is a misdirection.
Adriaan Buys: yeah, a recently had a look at the global map with the palm oil expansion and what sort of getting our idea what is happening with palm oil globally and it seems like
Adriaan Buys: I think there's a lot of focused targeted in the east on palm oil and to put pressure. in Africa they seems to be some development stop starting now and it's exactly what you saying. if you're gonna be able to plant it and another area where people aren't looking you as a farmer now in a tropical area and Africa, I can do some palm oil here. They're not looking for palm oil and our country so we can still do it. I spoke to another Eco tourism provider in Africa in the tropics, and she was saying that they chopping down the forest to plant eucalyptus trees.
Adriaan Buys: This is not something that you hear about and that's not published in the press that we must stop using eucalyptus and Eucalyptus. But this is the major pressure they have there and I mean chopping the other forest and Argentina Kettle for rearing Kettle.
Leif Cocks: mmm
Adriaan Buys: So like you say, it's the Model and the political model that lin underlying this whole system,…
Leif Cocks: exactly
Adriaan Buys: .
Leif Cocks: Yes, it's I would say for every complex problem in the world. There's a simple solution which is absolutely wrong. And so people want Simple Solutions because that's how the human mind likes to work, and so the idea of all the rainforest and replaced by palm oil or eucalyptus or start a palm or campaign and somehow that will affect government regulation corruption, and exploited business models is naive, and unfortunately as I was say, we live in the most important decade in human history this one determine not that we're gonna leave a better planet of future Generations, but Lithia recoverable one
Leif Cocks: and we don't have time to be misdirected, into virtual sick virtue signaling, as individuals, or we need to actually apply a love and compassion and tell us and intelligent way because we don't have time to muck around in this decade.
00:30:00
Adriaan Buys: So maybe just some last words and yeah. I've got a little in the back. Yeah. I've got a little African elephant. This is a little from the Edo elephant Park as little guy is playing in The Mad day learning how to Splash himself with mud in the gravel road, and what if there's a couple of parting thoughts on the orangutans and the elephants and the Tigers What is your requests and suggestions for 2024?
Leif Cocks: My request is to express to expand our love and compassion to living beings outside of humanity. I know we're having a hard time expanding up compassion for other humans in different races and cultures and countries. So it is a big ask but we're all in this, spaceship earth together. And unless we take the compassion love other living being especially the self-aware person such as orangutan. We need to expand our love and compassion. But again, this is not a win lose situation what we find as human beings and a self-aware persons when we becoming
Leif Cocks: Loving compassionate and selfless and work to a higher ideal Beyond US own selfish needs. We actually become healthy and happy. and more prosperous so by joining, a movement such as the orangutan project and our other projects just make me for changing the world or any other great cause along with the intelligently applying that love and compassion in a way that affects the meaningful change means not only you are able to collect device to make that meaningful change, but we find that actually the people themselves are donors and sponsors actually get enriched. as individuals
Leif Cocks: because ultimately it's selfishness and our lack of connection and recognizing our shared sense of shared being this was all life on planet, which makes us unhappy. And so it's always a win situation. So I hope that probably completes a circle of connectiveness to include our supporters and donors on this journey.
Adriaan Buys: Thank you very much. And I must say I really feel that. This inclusive idea, of this collectiveness working with the communities working with the people and not bringing this guilt or I'm there. I think there's a specific term,…
Leif Cocks: Mmm Yeah
Adriaan Buys: I think that's partly driving the opposition to environmental initiatives, instead of Coming out with we all love beautiful environment. we want to look after other creatures. We're not born to hate, but we create this opposition.
Leif Cocks: We create your position Could Be Love criticizing others because it makes us feel more important and…
Adriaan Buys: Yeah. But we include everybody,…
Leif Cocks: better than others. But if not good for me to change. but
Adriaan Buys: you include the farmers and include the farmers include communities.
Leif Cocks: exactly
Adriaan Buys: Those farmers are also not born to destroy the forests, but they have families to feed that. The economy is also pressurizing them. A lot of them are starving and in many such circumstances in many cases, Yeah.
Leif Cocks: Exactly, and what we have to do is, with compassion and love include all even the ones we're fighting against and those because as we see with politics the more you criticize others more people Harden into the preconceived positions and they're not open to change and if you really generally want to change the world you have open listening love compassion and opened all policy and never criticize anybody for their past actions, so they have to defend them as little fight provide the opportunity that we all, can move to the Future. and be accepted without criticism and that's one important effective change. And again, it's the intelligent expression of love because often people with that reforming themselves try to form the world and all they do is alienate people and
00:35:00
Leif Cocks: against the movement rather than engaging them in and…
Adriaan Buys: yeah, the
Leif Cocks: and bringing them on board to what we're trying to achieve.
Adriaan Buys: the Buddhists have this amazing thing called tonglen. is that it's actually taking other people's hurt and bring internalizing it and actually breathing out. Peace and love. To even people that you struggle to get along with and to people your opposition or your enemy or whoever you want to call that person and give that love and peace back. three children
Leif Cocks: Martin Luther King said can't destroy hate only love can do that.
Adriaan Buys: I love it, and I think I want to close on that note. Thank you so much.
Leif Cocks: Thank you.
Meeting ended after 00:36:32 👋
